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 Post subject: Feminism
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2015 00:47 
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Yesterday, before an MM game on inferno, I was indirectly asked on my views on reddit and r/shitredditsays. The conversation quickly turned into a discussion on feminism and I was unable to talk and express my viewpoint due to the fact the match had started. If you don't want to engage in a controversial discussion and/or you are easily offended I would stop reading.

There is no distinction between "Tumblr and r/srs feminists" and "true and real feminists". Just because someone is less radical in a bullshit belief does not make the moderate bullshitter factually correct. My largest problem with feminism is the focus on equal rights between genders by focusing almost exclusively on one gender. Sexism affects both men and women to varying degrees. There is a deadly type of sexism and I would argue it to be the most important issue that is extremely overlooked.

Men starting at the age of 18 have to sign up for the selective service act. This sexist act states that only men are fit for combat and that women are incapable of performing in the act of combat via the draft. The fallacious counter argument that feminists use is that mothers have babies inside them for 9 months and that on nature they are the caretaker. My response is what about the women that don't have kids? What about the man who was also instrumental in creating the baby? A father cares about his child just as much as the mother.

I will be a feminist when I see women marching in the streets to demand to be put into the selective service act. All able bodied people regardless of color or gender should serve their country in time of emergency. Why is it that modern gender rights are about petit shit like free birth control (Sandra Fluke) when you can get free contraception at Planned Parenthood? There is super cheap birth control pills at Walmart and Target for $9-15. How much sex are you having for the government to pay for it?

Another example of modern petit feminist bullshit is the sexism in video games (Anita Sarkeesian) controversy. Is the trope of Damsel in Distress necessary for a quarter million dollars in kickstarter money and donations? I would like to see a quarter pf a million dollars raised for the advocacy of stopping male and female genital mutilation on kickstarter rather than the fact that rescuing a fucking princess in mario is systemically oppressing women. (Not an exaggeratiom thats honestly what she believes).

You can say I cherry picked these 3 examples but some of these instances but the whole Anita Sarkessian and Sandra Fluke controveries were some of the largest gender rights issues of the last 5 years. (At least in US govt and on the web) And that is bullshit. And that is why I am not a feminist. I am an equalist.

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 Post subject: Re: Feminism
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2015 03:07 
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Epilogue

Now that I have laid out factual statistics ($9 walmart contraception anyone?) i figured that I should go based on anecdotal evidence as well. Most social justice warriors I have met on reddit and tumblr are really unpleasant, smug, and unjustifyably arrogant. They thing that talking about patriarchy for the millionth time will get them some sympathy tears or some shit. I swear that I think they literally believe there is like 10 white men huddled in a room talking about how to opress women and minorities.

The sad truth is, that even in the most unprivileged parts of America, you can still get an education and work your way up to a decent job. The sad part is people would rather sit and feel sorry for themselves and talk about how oppressed they are rather than doing what try are supposed to. Is it fair that rich kids have all the opportunities? No. But if you don't have opportunity then you must have dedication and talent to make up for it. But making excuses won't get you anywhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Feminism
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2015 04:05 
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I'd like to preface this by saying:
Quote:
Now that I have laid out factual statistics
You used 1 statistic and it wasn't a statistic, it was just a number that you came up with.
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There is no distinction between "Tumblr and r/srs feminists" and "true and real feminists". Just because someone is less radical in a bullshit belief does not make the moderate bullshitter factually correct.
Similarly, there is no difference between radical Islamist's and the rest of Islamist's? "Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment." [I searched "Feminism" for that definition] Considering that women were given the right to vote in 1920, I would say this is not a bullshit belief. Considering that women get paid, on average, less than men for the same jobs with the same experience, I would say this is not a bullshit belief. [I searched "How much do men make more than women"] Take a look at http://www.payscale.com/gender-lifetime-earnings-gap which uses the United States Department of Labor as a source.
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Men starting at the age of 18 have to sign up for the selective service act.
This is specific to the U.S. so I won't comment on it. Remember that women are seen as less than men in all third world countries, most second world countries, and many first world countries. I am unsure how sexism is ingrained in society in the Netherlands and surrounding first world countries. Sexism is definitely apparent in Canada and the U.S., which is the basis for this discussion.
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Why is it that modern gender rights are about petit shit like free birth control (Sandra Fluke) when you can get free contraception at Planned Parenthood? There is super cheap birth control pills at Walmart and Target for $9-15. How much sex are you having for the government to pay for it?
You do not understand how birth control works and need to research it a little bit before having this strong of an opinion. There are different kinds of birth controls that use different hormones and do different things. Different people react differently to different birth controls. Some have EXTREMELY negative side effects. Some people need birth control just to be balanced. Research it a little bit. There is much more to birth control than preventing pregnancy.
Quote:
Another example of modern petit feminist bullshit is the sexism in video games (Anita Sarkeesian) controversy. Is the trope of Damsel in Distress necessary for a quarter million dollars in kickstarter money and donations? I would like to see a quarter pf a million dollars raised for the advocacy of stopping male and female genital mutilation on kickstarter rather than the fact that rescuing a fucking princess in mario is systemically oppressing women. (Not an exaggeratiom thats honestly what she believes).
No, that's absurd. You are taking these overly hyped issues that people with loud voices have, and saying "This is what feminism believes". It is MUCH more common to see a female character with inhuman proportions and wearing skimpy clothing, than it is to see a male character with inhuman proportions. I would argue that MOST female characters are portrayed like this, and SOME male characters are as well.

Male genital mutilation is not equal to female genital mutilation. Male circumcision is a fad and doesn't almost nothing to help or hurt the male. Female circumcision is dangerous and very painful. Not to mention that money is and has been raised to raise awareness of this issue. Even among the population that "female genital mutilation" exists in, VERY FEW people want it to continue. Almost the entire world is against this practice. ~5% of the female population in the world has had their genitals mutilated. ~23% of the male population in the world has had their genitals mutilated (including circumcision). I'll be honest in that I only quickly found these statistics. http://noharmm.org/HGMstats.htm
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What about the man who was also instrumental in creating the baby? A father cares about his child just as much as the mother.
Okay, no. You are completely negating the maternal instincts that women have, especially for their own children. You are completely negating all hormones present in parenting. What you are saying is akin to "man + woman = baby. 1 + 1 = 2. Therefore, I made half the baby, I care just as much". That is not how biology works.
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The sad truth is, that even in the most unprivileged parts of America, you can still get an education and work your way up to a decent job. The sad part is people would rather sit and feel sorry for themselves and talk about how oppressed they are rather than doing what try are supposed to. Is it fair that rich kids have all the opportunities? No. But if you don't have opportunity then you must have dedication and talent to make up for it. But making excuses won't get you anywhere.
I'm choosing my words carefully so there is zero misunderstanding what I am saying. The words I am saying are not going to be misinterpreted, it is exactly what you think it is. You are ignorant. You are ignorant in the definition of, "lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular." You suffer from privileges. You suffer from privileges in the definition of, "a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most" and "belonging to a class that enjoys special privileges; favored". Do not speak for people who are unprivileged unless, 1) You have studied the subject or 2) You have experienced the subject. Instead of searching the web for, "Why poor people need to get jobs" try searching for, "The cycle of poverty" and, "Why is there so many poor people". Explain to me, even in a very specific example, how somebody is supposed to pay for their education when, 1) They need to work full-time just to be able to afford food and rent, and, 2) Even if they had extra money, ALL of their time is spent working, sleeping, or commuting to work. "Work your way up to a decent job". That's vague. Please be more specific about what a "decent job" is. Because I don't particularly want to be stuck in a warehouse making $12/hr for the rest of my life. I have enough self-respect and knowledge to know that will make me very depressed and leave me feeling unfulfilled.
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The sad part is people would rather sit and feel sorry for themselves and talk about how oppressed they are rather than doing what try are supposed to
You seem to struggle with the notion that other people have a reality other than yours. Let me give you an analogy you can understand. "People would rather sit and feel sorry for themselves and talk about how oppressed they are..." READ: Your parents fighting. "...rather than doing what they are supposed to." READ: Talking to a professional counselor or talking to your parents. Why is it so easy for you to criticize others without thinking about why things happen the way they do.
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Most social justice warriors I have met on reddit and tumblr are really unpleasant, smug, and unjustifiably arrogant.
It blows my mind that you do not realize that what you've written here, defines you during these discussions. So far, every time you've made a post like this, it is marketed as a discussion but in reality it is a vent thread.

Just because you talk louder, doesn't make your opinion more correct.

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 Post subject: Re: Feminism
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2015 11:32 
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Your conversation reminds me of an article I read recently by an ethicist and a doctor about circumcision, which addresses some misconceptions about both male and female circumcision in both your posts. And for what it's worth, every single feminist I've ever discussed circumcision with has felt that both men and women need to be given the choice to be circumcised.

http://aeon.co/magazine/philosophy/male ... lly-wrong/

The only thing I will add to this is that feminism *is* about equality. For every way you misinterpret a feminist just fighting for woman's rights, there is a man's right that will be had with victory. If women can get equality in video game expression, men will be free of one of the hundreds of ways they are taught from childhood that a desire for sex is the only emotion a man is allowed to feel. Most feminists fight for women to be able to voluntarily fight in the military and for men to not have to be on the selective service, because feminists claim that every individual has the ultimate right to choose what they do with their own body.

The point of tumblr and srs is not to accurately represent the many facets of each and every feminist position. I highly recommend reading "The Gender Knot" as an introduction to the complexity of feminism before dismissing it off hand. Feminism *is* "equalism" as you put above, and a desire to eschew feminism in favor of "equalism" shows a lack of understanding of feminism.

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 Post subject: Re: Feminism
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2015 12:02 
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Quote:
I'd like to preface this by saying:

You used 1 statistic and it wasn't a statistic, it was just a number that you came up with.
I do apologize for the lack of sources and typos. I wrote the entire rant on my iPod.
Source on $9 Birth Control http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-shepp ... th-control
(I know it's an article but the article has the statistic I mentioned)

Source on Anita Sarkeesian's KickStarter Money ($158,922) https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/56 ... ideo-games
And donations she received after she made herself a professional victim to such a wide scale that it was reported on every major media outlet. ($441,930) https://www.dropbox.com/s/q4z6qa561roid ... 4.pdf?dl=0

$600,852 In Total. Good job to see that more than half a million dollars went to someone who simply made YouTube videos bitching about Women being portrayed negatively in video games (instead of ACTUAL women's rights issues)

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Similarly, there is no difference between radical Islamist's and the rest of Islamist's?
Absolutely, It least when it comes to ideology. Imagine if people were blowing the selves up for the belief that the earth is the center of the universe. Sure, some geocentrists are not suicide bombers but they still believe the same bullshit ideology. Bullshit is bullshit no matter how radical. Islam is the way Islam is because of Mohammed. He is the only modernly popular religious prophet or leader that was a blatant war criminal .(Sauce:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_c ... f_Muhammad). {LOL, I can't Imagine Jesus beheading people to "regain territory"}"
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Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment." [I searched "Feminism" for that definition] Considering that women were given the right to vote in 1920, I would say this is not a bullshit belief. Considering that women get paid, on average, less than men for the same jobs with the same experience, I would say this is not a bullshit belief. [I searched "How much do men make more than women"] Take a look at http://www.payscale.com/gender-lifetime-earnings-gap which uses the United States Department of Labor as a source.
I should have prefaced this by saying that THIRD WAVE feminism is horrible. What Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony did for women's rights was admirable and honorable. MODERN Feminism is the problem. Third Wave Feminism's beliefs are defined as such....."The shift from second wave feminism came about with many of the legal and institutional rights that were extended to women. In addition to these institutional gains, third-wave feminists believed there needed to be further changes in stereotypes, media portrayals, and language to define women. Third-wave ideology focuses on a more post-structuralist interpretation of gender and sexuality. SOURCE:::Hardin, Marie; Whiteside, Erin (2013). "From Second-Wave to Poststructuralist Feminism". The International Encyclopedia of Media Studies: Media Effects/Media Psychology. Blackwell.:::

What we essentially have is the fact that women have achieved full equal rights in modern, industrialized, first world nations and now they need to try and "challenge" gender stereotypes and "offensive language" towards women. It no longer has to deal with the right to choose and the right to vote. It now talks about there not being a gender binary, "patriarchy" (which is a bullshit concept in and of itself) and how they don't like it when people call them a "slut" or "bitch" (which is just as bad as a "dick" for men.) What third-wavers fail to understand is that sexism, racism, and homophobic language will never die. Yet they think that being the politically correct language police is somehow going to make women more comfortable in certain situations. Anything that slightly makes women inconvenienced is somehow proof that there is a sexist crusade out to get women and make them feel less important. This is the side effect of telling everyone in the public school system for 7 years straight that being a straight, white male makes you some evil oppressor (which it may IN THE CONTEXT OF HISTORY). However, this is not the case in the modern world where we all have the right to vote, get an education, work a job, and raise a family. The only people that oppress modern feminists are themselves. After being told they are oppressed for so long they start to believe it. They start to pity yourself and they start to complain about male privilege and the patriarchy instead of being empowered to actually make a difference for equal rights.

As for unequal pay.
The statistic you used for unequal pay actually provides my argument for me. The reason women make less then men is a result of a few factors. Job Choice and Family Responsibilities are both mentioned in your source so I won't make the argument here since I'll just be copy-pastaing information from the source.

I don't think people take into the fact that there is a natural margin of error with pay. 3~4% Is a pretty reasonable margin of error.

I highly doubt that ingrained sexism in our culture is the real reason why women 75-90 cents for every dollar a man makes. (different sources provide different results) I think my favorite article on this is (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... 77-cents-/)
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This is specific to the U.S. so I won't comment on it.

You SHOULD comment on it. It's a perfect example of misandry and the way third-wavers try to awkwardly dodge the problem of male sexism. (Remember they are FEMINISTS and not EQUALISTS so they don't give two shits about sexism with men. It's only sexist when it happens to women. It's always women's rights not equal rights or gender rights. They only focus on ONE gender (which is funny since they claim there is more than the gender binary) {otherkin bullshit anyone?}
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Remember that women are seen as less than men in all third world countries, most second world countries, and many first world countries.
If we are using modern terminology then I don't think you mean this --->(First World Means Democratic Countries, Second World Means Former and Current Communist and Socialist countries, Third World means all other countries) but rather this ----> (First World Means Industrialized and Civilized Countries, Second Means BRIC Countries, Third Means Impoverished Nations)

I agree with Third and Second world countries but I don't think women are seen as second class citizens in modern civilized countries.
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Sexism is definitely apparent in Canada and the U.S., which is the basis for this discussion.
Show me some instances of ingrained and systematically ingrained sexism in The US and Canada to the point of inequality.
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You do not understand how birth control works and need to research it a little bit before having this strong of an opinion. There are different kinds of birth controls that use different hormones and do different things. Different people react differently to different birth controls. Some have EXTREMELY negative side effects. Some people need birth control just to be balanced. Research it a little bit. There is much more to birth control than preventing pregnancy.
Of course there is more to birth control than pregnancy. I know birth control pills have other uses (Ovarian Cysts and Hormone Imbalances) but there is a reason that Fluke wants to impose religious organizations to make contraceptives part of their health plan. It's because she does not see the seperation of church and state and she is too lazy to buy contraception at fucking walmart for $9. If I chop my arm off in an accident I still have to pay the hospital fees so why should you have the government baby you because you fuck alot? I know It's an American Health Care problem but it was one of the largest modern women right's issues and it's all because Ms. Fluke can't spend $120 a YEAR on birth control when she claimed it cost an average law student $3,000 a year. (http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240 ... 1399954950)

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No, that's absurd. You are taking these overly hyped issues that people with loud voices have, and saying "This is what feminism believes".


I follow the money trail. The fact that Anita raised $600,000 from feminists shows to me that it is what most feminists believe.
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It is MUCH more common to see a female character with inhuman proportions and wearing skimpy clothing, than it is to see a male character with inhuman proportions. I would argue that MOST female characters are portrayed like this, and SOME male characters are as well.
Really? Big Titties and a Big Ass Is inhuman???? I thought it came down to dieting and genetics. Wow. The idea that somehow sex is bad and that women should be covered up is very sexist and makes it seem like women can never have a role in a sexual environment.

Meanwhile, He-Man and Conan The Barbarian would like to have a word with you on inhuman proportions.
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Male genital mutilation is not equal to female genital mutilation.
Absolutely Not. However, Mutilation is still mutilation whether that be foreskin, a labia, or your fingertips.
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Male circumcision is a fad and doesn't almost nothing to help or hurt the male.
This is completely untrue and ignorant (I used your favorite word)
Chopping any part of the body is hurtful, especially the foreskin which carries necessary nerve endings during sex. If circumcision wasn't given at infancy, no-one over the age of 18 would willingly sign up for it (at least no-one that is sane) Circumcision hurts and that is the reason a scar is left and the fact that the baby fucking screams in agony as the "procedure" happens. It's fucking torture.

AN AMAZING ARTICLE
http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/02/2 ... cumcision/

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Female circumcision is dangerous and very painful. Not to mention that money is and has been raised to raise awareness of this issue. Even among the population that "female genital mutilation" exists in, VERY FEW people want it to continue. Almost the entire world is against this practice. ~5% of the female population in the world has had their genitals mutilated. ~23% of the male population in the world has had their genitals mutilated (including circumcision). I'll be honest in that I only quickly found these statistics. http://noharmm.org/HGMstats.htm
I agree that it is dangerous and painful. The sad fact is that most of the money raised on this issue is by human rights organizations. I would like to see so called feminists raise as much money as they did for Anita on a serious issue like this.
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Okay, no. You are completely negating the maternal instincts that women have, especially for their own children. You are completely negating all hormones present in parenting. What you are saying is akin to "man + woman = baby. 1 + 1 = 2. Therefore, I made half the baby, I care just as much". That is not how biology works.
Fair Point. Women are still not incapable of the draft, however.
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Do not speak for people who are unprivileged unless, 1) You have studied the subject or 2) You have experienced the subject. Instead of searching the web for, "Why poor people need to get jobs" try searching for, "The cycle of poverty" and, "Why is there so many poor people". Explain to me, even in a very specific example, how somebody is supposed to pay for their education when, 1) They need to work full-time just to be able to afford food and rent, and, 2) Even if they had extra money, ALL of their time is spent working, sleeping, or commuting to work. "Work your way up to a decent job". That's vague. Please be more specific about what a "decent job" is. Because I don't particularly want to be stuck in a warehouse making $12/hr for the rest of my life. I have enough self-respect and knowledge to know that will make me very depressed and leave me feeling unfulfilled.
Poverty will never be eradicated. In any soceity, you will always have a lower class (even if that lower class has amazing technology and can feed itself). In capitalism, some people will make more money than others. Tis Life. You don't have to pay for your education. Graduate with As in every class and there will be plenty of scholarship options. The sad part is when kids don't want to learn and would rather drop out or play hookie. Not everyone can get a perfect job but what are you going to do? There is no such utopia that exists where everyone gets their feet rubbed and they all make 5 million a year. Some people get screwed. But I would rather try to claw my way to the top instead of complaining that I'm on the bottom.
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You seem to struggle with the notion that other people have a reality other than yours. Let me give you an analogy you can understand. "People would rather sit and feel sorry for themselves and talk about how oppressed they are..." READ: Your parents fighting. "...rather than doing what they are supposed to." READ: Talking to a professional counselor or talking to your parents. Why is it so easy for you to criticize others without thinking about why things happen the way they do.
I never complain about my parents fighting, I just let people know that they are fighting so there is an explanation on why I'm not talking. Domestic Conflict, Depression, and Mental Illness are much larger issues than skimpy outfits in video games. You are comparing apples to trucks. (Not even oranges)
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It blows my mind that you do not realize that what you've written here, defines you during these discussions. So far, every time you've made a post like this, it is marketed as a discussion but in reality it is a vent thread.
There is emotion and facts and evidence. I would call that a discussion but if you want to call it a vent thread then be my guest.
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Just because you talk louder, doesn't make your opinion more correct.
Amen.

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Last edited by -r0b07 on 08 Feb 2015 12:13, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Feminism
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2015 12:07 
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Quote:
Your conversation reminds me of an article I read recently by an ethicist and a doctor about circumcision, which addresses some misconceptions about both male and female circumcision in both your posts. And for what it's worth, every single feminist I've ever discussed circumcision with has felt that both men and women need to be given the choice to be circumcised.

http://aeon.co/magazine/philosophy/male ... lly-wrong/

The only thing I will add to this is that feminism *is* about equality. For every way you misinterpret a feminist just fighting for woman's rights, there is a man's right that will be had with victory. If women can get equality in video game expression, men will be free of one of the hundreds of ways they are taught from childhood that a desire for sex is the only emotion a man is allowed to feel. Most feminists fight for women to be able to voluntarily fight in the military and for men to not have to be on the selective service, because feminists claim that every individual has the ultimate right to choose what they do with their own body.

The point of tumblr and srs is not to accurately represent the many facets of each and every feminist position. I highly recommend reading "The Gender Knot" as an introduction to the complexity of feminism before dismissing it off hand. Feminism *is* "equalism" as you put above, and a desire to eschew feminism in favor of "equalism" shows a lack of understanding of feminism.
Thank you for some perspective. I'll try and read The Gender Knot. I would love to see the debate from the other side. The feminism you preach is closer to the 1st and 2nd Waves rather than the 3rd Wave tumblr/srs bullshit.

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 Post subject: Re: Feminism
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2015 12:40 
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Quote:
I do apologize for the lack of sources and typos. I wrote the entire rant on my iPod.
Source on $9 Birth Control http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-shepp ... th-control
(I know it's an article but the article has the statistic I mentioned)
My birth control isn't on there. Travis already mentioned why that is bad.
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(instead of ACTUAL women's rights issues)
I don't understand. How is it not an actual woman's rights issue? And even if it isn't, how does caring about something close to you (eg "feminism in media" to a person who studied media) in any way diminish the feminist movement? I care way more about equality in the classroom than I do about domestic violence in the NFL because I am a teacher who also doesn't give a fuck about sports. I put most of my energy in tackling the problems I can change, not the ones I can't.
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What we essentially have is the fact that women have achieved full equal rights
No they haven't, and you brought some of them up in your OP. But even if they had, discussion equality under the law is significantly different from discussing equality within society.
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gender stereotypes
I'd like to point out that feminists challenge gender stereotypes against both genders.
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"patriarchy" (which is a bullshit concept in and of itself)
How is it a bullshit concept in and of itself? Patriarchy basically defines what "good" characteristics are and what "bad" characteristics are. For example, a male CEO who shows no emotion when making important business decisions is a "cut-throat competitor" who should be admired. A female worker who attempts to show those same types of behaviors is a "bitch". Why? Because men are supposed to be unemotional and women are supposed to be emotional.

As a side note, did you know this used to be reversed? Women used to be thought of as being too dumb to show emotion, and men were the ones who were supposed to show a wide range of emotions.

A man is expected to be back at work "providing for his family" after the birth of his child because under patriarchy men aren't expected to want or even be capable of developing deep emotional bonds with their newborn children. One privilege that patriarchy awards females but not males is an opportunity to bond with a newborn, because women are "naturally" more caring and men are "naturally" unemotional.
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and how they don't like it when people call them a "slut" or "bitch" (which is just as bad as a "dick" for men.)
You've brought up a very important within feminism. What does it mean when somebody acts "like a dick"? It means they aren't taking your emotions into consideration, they're being selfish, etc. In short, they're acting "like a man" under patriarchy. What does it mean if you call somebody a "pussy"? It means they're being cowardly, emotional, weak. They're acting "like a woman" under patriarchal gender stereotypes. Feminists seek to educate about both sides of the gender spectrum. Women can wear pants to work but a man can't wear skirts. Women are allowed to dress like men because "man" is the ultimate goal of a patriarchal society - women are moving forward when they dress like men. Men are moving backwards, representing themselves as something lesser, when they dress like women, and thus society does not allow it to happen.

Feminists fight against both of these things.
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Yet they think that being the politically correct language police is somehow going to make women more comfortable in certain situations.
But... it does. I am vastly more comfortable playing CS in my servers or with my friends than I am playing with strangers, simply because we have rules against being sexist.
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Anything that slightly makes women inconvenienced is somehow proof that there is a sexist crusade out to get women and make them feel less important.
You're acting like patriarchy or gender inequality is some sort of conscious choice. No feminist would suggest that somebody is "out to get them" or consciously trying to make them feel less important. We are thankfully living in an age where most people actually try to be relatively civil towards each other. The issue is subconscious, often not even recognized or validated by the majority of the population. Bringing attention to the issues almost makes them fix themselves. I called people "faggot" all the time until I truly understand how it's oppressive. Then I just stopped, all on my own, because I'm not a sociopath. This is how culture changes, and this is all feminists are trying to do.
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However, this is not the case in the modern world where we all have the right to vote, get an education, work a job, and raise a family.
Having equal rights under the law does not change the societal pressures associated with each of these choices. I think what you're doing is taking an extreme view of free agency, where every single person is perfectly cable of making every single choice given to them. This is simply not realistic, and any choice a person attempts to make has obstacles outside of that person's control.
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It's a perfect example of misandry and the way third-wavers try to awkwardly dodge the problem of male sexism.
I've said this before, but I'll say it again - No feminist would ignore the issue of selective service. It's a shame that instead of attempting to have an actual discussion with a feminist that you have chosen to read a few comments and extrapolate the whole of feminism from them. (I remember yesterday you mentioned you never really reply to comments in reddit, but I think it would really help you develop your ideas about what feminists do and don't believe.)
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(Remember they are FEMINISTS and not EQUALISTS
There's no such thing as an equalist. Feminists fight for gender equality. They usually do that by raising women up to the same level as men, so the term "feminist" is pretty reasonable, but there are distinct areas of society where men are below women and feminists seek to raise them up as well. You're focusing too much on the fact that "feminism" sounds like "female" instead of actually looking at what feminists are trying to accomplish. And, in case this wasn't clear yet, looking at a few posts from tumblr or srs is also not a good way to determine what feminism is trying to accomplish. Have an actual discussion with a feminist. Read an actual book by a well-spoken feminist. Do something other than read the dregs of the internet to determine what something means.
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so they don't give two shits about sexism with men.
Yes we do.
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It's only sexist when it happens to women.
No it isn't.
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It's always women's rights not equal rights or gender rights.
No it isn't.
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They only focus on ONE gender
No they don't.

Maybe read some actual feminist literature (I mentioned a really good introduction in my earlier post) instead of just tumblr posts?
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Show me some instances of ingrained and systematically ingrained sexism in The US and Canada to the point of inequality.
Don't worry, Travis, I gave a few already.
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Thank you for some perspective. I'll try and read The Gender Knot. I would love to see the debate from the other side. The feminism you preach is closer to the 1st and 2nd Waves rather than the 3rd Wave tumblr/srs bullshit.
Tumblr/srs bullshit is not 3rd wave feminism. The Gender Knot is.

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 Post subject: Re: Feminism
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2015 14:23 
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I suppose I'm going to to have to agree to disagree when it comes to what the fundamentals of feminism are. I see it as a radical misandrist movement that is obsessed with patriarchy and oppression rather than empowerment. To each is own. But hopefully I have explained my position which I couldn't yesterday (no matter how flawed you think my thinking is)

I hope we have a new wave of feminism where instead of whining and complaining, there is just kicking ass and taking names. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Feminism
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2015 14:37 
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I see it as a radical misandrist movement that is obsessed with patriarchy and oppression rather than empowerment.
That's because you only get your information from tumblr.
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But hopefully I have explained my position which I couldn't yesterday (no matter how flawed you think my thinking is)
Yep, you did a good job of explaining it.
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I hope we have a new wave of feminism where instead of whining and complaining, there is just kicking ass and taking names
It already exists. It's called "feminism".

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 Post subject: Re: Feminism
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2015 22:34 
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I'm going to preface with, I don't agree with your views on feminism, Robot. I'm just going to say that there are different extremities of feminism (like religion) and just because some feminists are idiots doesn't mean ALL are. I personally agree that there is sexism against men as well (a man in court vs. a woman in court, for example) but I think on a daily basis women face more sexism then men do. Maybe I feel that way because I'm female and I've seen it directed towards me more. Or maybe I just haven't had enough life experience to feel differently, but that's how I feel.

Secondly:
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I do apologize for the lack of sources and typos. I wrote the entire rant on my iPod.
Source on $9 Birth Control http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-shepp ... th-control
(I know it's an article but the article has the statistic I mentioned)
I'm just going to respond to this bit here and the prior bit where you spoke about birth control. Birth control is NOT just used as a contraceptive. Many, many, many women use it as a way to help control the cramping when on their period.

Myself, for example - without birth control I cramp and bleed for at least eight days straight (rarely less, sometimes more). It feels like there is a demon inside my uterus trying to claw it's way out. My lower back will KILL with pain. My abdomen will constantly ache. I will literally be unable to go to work, school or do anything other than lie in bed, clutching my pillow and cry for three-four days. Ibuprofen, advil, all these other over-the-counter medications do NOT help at all (unless I take the medication before the cramping starts. How the fuck am I supposed to guess that??). Some women have worse cramps than I do. Some women vomit for the duration of their period.

On birth control? 3-6 days of bleeding (varies depending on where my body's natural schedule is). Maybe 1-3 days of minimal cramping...where I feel I have an ache in my abdomen. Frequently no cramping!

Birth control is not just a way for me to prevent myself from popping out babies (albeit, that is a nice side affect). It is a necessary medication that I use to help regulate my body's natural stupidity. I will fight anyone who says otherwise.

So dare to disagree and fite me. D<


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 Post subject: Re: Feminism
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2015 23:20 
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Cemy I have no problem with birth control and I am aware of it's other genuine medical benefits. Hell, even if there was no medical benefits, sex is awesome! the only gripe I used to have is when the govt gets involved.I have changed my views slightly on Sandra Fluke in that if condoms are provided by the employer as part of the health care plan then bc pills should be given out as well. Bc pils still dont cost 3,000$ a year (seriously does her vagina a stream of solid gold going to it????)


And i will fight you 1v1 dust2 p90 only :333

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 Post subject: Re: Feminism
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2015 23:26 
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Posts: 2972
Location: T͚̜͙͚̠̦ͬͧ̐ͬĥ͙͉͙̥̹̝͖ͮ̒̒̋ͤ̄eͭͫͭ ̥̤͔̽ͥ͐ͦͦͣỊ̒̎n̖͚̘͇̬̟te̻̥͇̳̲̲͊̂͆ͩr̝̯̦̼͔̖̻̽n͙ͬ͆̎e͔̰͎ͩ͋̀̚t̮̞͎̓ͨ́
Are you sure it doesn't cost her $3,000 per year? My gf pays $62 per month, and an ex paid $40 per month. I know that I have no idea whether there are pills that cost more or not.

EDIT: I've just found that there are pills that are that expensive.

LoSeasonique = $283 per month

Seasonique = $270 per month

Seasonale = $206 per month

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 Post subject: Re: Feminism
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2015 23:37 
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I apologize. There are Pills that have solid gold go directly into the vagina.

In serious talk, I changed my view.

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 Post subject: Re: Feminism
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2015 21:28 
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I'm fortunate that a relatively cheap birth control works for me. Even so, my insurance refuses to help cover it even though I have written notice from my doctor that says I use it for reasons other than a contraceptive. Other women have to use more expensive brands because their bodies are more stupid than mine.


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