Absurd Minds

Some of you may remember shAggy who has played 1.6 with us a few times. I sent him an invite yesterday to play GO with us and as a result had a wonderful conversation with him about the state of Counter Strike leagues. He requested me to post this:

_________________
Server list
Donate

Running a league has always been the ultimate dream for me and serialp0rt. Being a part of your project would be wonderful.

We've put a lot of thought over the years into what makes other leagues to terrible and what a good league would have to have. Here are some of those ideas:

• Free. A lot of people either can't or simply won't pay to play in a league, and it fosters greater competition at all levels if there is no fee.
• Ladder and season. Ladder provides more flexibility; season provides more of a feeling of competition.
• 5v5, 3v3, 6v6, etc competitions. You can offer a much higher level of strategizing if you don't box people into 5v5 leagues. Strategizing d2 with 3 people is challenging and interesting.
• A high expectation of sportsmanlike conduct. Players should act professionally.
• A well-respected client. Serial has done more research into what a client needs and could tell you more about what is needed.
• The inclusion of all counter strike maps some how within the league. I don't think you can call yourself a competitive cs league if you openly disregard half the cs maps.
• A front to organize pick up games.

_________________
Server list
Donate

the main problem with most leagues clients right now, is that they can detect all the basic cheats, and all the cheats that just alter files while playing, but they can't detect cheats that start outside the windows environment. Some of the higher priced cheats (and this is just researching them, I have never used nor seen someone using) run outside the protection level within windows. It acts very similar to a rootkit virus. I don't know if its possible to have a client that can detect this unless people are forced to run it and then reboot so it starts within that ring of protection before windows loads. This could also get very expensive, if its even possible. Places like ESEA will get MOST cheats. However, you don't want a client that is buggy and a resource hog like CEVO client. I haven't played CEVO in 2 years or more, so unless they have changed something their client is absolute garbage. Sure it'll catch some cheats but when it bogged computers down that were just trying to play 1.6 then its programmed poorly.

I agree with all the other points made. It would be nice to have ladders and seasons to accommodate everyone's preferences. I would love to have a league that anyone and everyone could play in. Maybe you aren't that good, in that case you will get owned and probably won't go very far your first time, but you won't be ridiculed for being bad, and you will be given just as much respect as the winners.

Website ideas, I'll try to write something on that later. lets see if anyone else has any ideas. This has been my dream for years, and I would love to see it start development.

_________________
I'm so official, like a dealer with a pistol or referee with a whistle.

What I liked about CAL was the separation of teams from open - IM - main - invite. Open was a great way to prove you were a good team, while IM held clans that still needed to work on things. Main had many great teams, and if they wanted to clear the next hurdle to invite they had to win a tournament and be well-known at LANs (essentially proving they didn't cheat). Also, there was a sense of leadership in CAL. I didn't have to worry about the league being run by immature douche bags. They had rules and the rules were followed. That's been the biggest transition for me - I stopped playing 1.6 in the summer of 2002 (we were in CAL-M) for college and started playing again during GO BETA. I have not shelled out for ESEA (still not sure why we can't just find scrims in a style similar to IRC) because I don't like the structure and have heard CEVO's leadership doesn't follow its own rules.

The other point I wanted to touch upon:

"The inclusion of all counter strike maps some how within the league. I don't think you can call yourself a competitive cs league if you openly disregard half the cs maps."

I disagree. Don't think this hasn't been tried before, there's a reason leagues do not have CS maps in the rotation. Hostages are unpredictable. They glitch and can be used as meat shields to punish CTs trying to kill the terrorists (What is it, 2500 penalty for injuring hostages)? CS maps were included in many leagues in the early stages of counter-strike and were more trouble than they were worth. They are also extremely one sided (see any CS map ever made). It's not fun putting so much pressure on the pistol rounds and have the rest of the rounds essentially meaningless (unless the terrorists have no idea how to play, which is rare against good teams). I've had matches on Italy and Office back in the early days of CS, and can't say I miss losing all my money due to a grenade bouncing poorly and landing at the hostages feet.

None of those issues should exist in go. The hostages never glitch, and you can manually edit hostage penalties as well as rewards for rescuing. In go, the cs maps are incredibly more viable than in 1.6, but nobody wants to try because the competitive scene is notoriously stubborn and opposed to change nowadays.

_________________
Server list
Donate

If you feel passionate enough to suggest the CS maps as viable competitive options, go for it. However, I vehemently disagree. Even if we assume that what you've said is true (money can be solved, hostages aren't clumsy, etc.) it still doesn't address how one sided the maps are. The heart of the issue is the CTs are trying to get to one area (as opposed to two bomb sites). This leads to 5 Ts being able to bunker down and defend one point, essentially camping all round. On maps like Italy especially, this leads to wall spamming as one of the most viable tactics to win rounds. I don't know about you, but I hate having random wall spam being one of the main contributing factors to winning a map. Also, rescuing hostages is in essence a lot more difficult than planting a bomb. Not only do you have to reach the hostages, but in the time allowed gather them and run back to spawn. It's such a ridiculous objective, especially when compared to gaining a point and defending it for 40 seconds.

CS compared to DE are different game modes; they are not the same type of team play. I don't know if you remember VIP maps, but they are a similar comparison in my opinion. The game modes attract different audiences and styles of gameplay, but I don't think they can all be grouped as "one game" due to the differences required in team play. If there was a separate ladder that included CS maps I'd have no issue as a change of pace. But I wouldn't suggest adding them to the main league as a staple on the rotation.

I just don't see any problem competing on one sided maps. One sided maps were jettisoned to make cs more viable as a spectator sport. There is nothing wrong inherently competing on a one sided map, and it adds a great dimension to game play. (Think back to yesterday on train going 4-11 the first map and coming back to win.) I do recognize that the gaming community has a strong and unshiftable bias against them, though, which I attributed to stubbornness. Because of this, having them as an option rather than an ultimatum (eg a season with and a season withiut) is preferable. I agree that they are vastly different styles of game play, which is why so many people are against them, but i don't want to see them completely ignored in a good league.

_________________
Server list
Donate

I agree with both sides. I think a lot of the issues besides it being one sided maps can be adjusted with settings. I understand some people just don't like to deal with hostages, maybe those maps could mean less in the season, or be like preseason maps or something along those lines. Round times should be longer because you have to get the hostages and take them back. Damage to the hostages should definitely be changed as far as the money penalty. Maybe they should only be played on the ladders instead of the seasons. If nothing else its something that could be tried and altered or removed altogether if it doesn't work. Or there could be a ladder or season exclusively with those types of maps. There are lots of options. I think if we actually get this rolling and start from the ground up we can do it anyway we see fit and still make it work. Just talking about this has me REALLY excited.

_________________
I'm so official, like a dealer with a pistol or referee with a whistle.

Before I add in some more cents, I'd like to thank Serial and Anubis and the Absurd Minded folk for allowing me to broaden my market research with this project.

I am as excited as you are Serialport. I've been contemplating this project for many moons, and now that I do have some capital behind me I believe it is time to put together the pieces and start! I will begin the plan this week and I will update Serialport and Anubis with what I collect. Hopefully this process is as smooth as butter, and hopefully we can collaborate and create the greatest league known to gamers.

I can't really give anymore information as I do not want to try and promote rumors. Let the ball begin to roll before we can grab it.

"FOR GAMERS BY GAMERS!"
I will stay in touch with the Absurd Mind clan. Hope to talk to all of you, as well as play with or against you in the near future. Be on your toes if you do play me, I guarantee my team/group of friends will not give you more than 6 rounds.

Psh. K.

_________________
Server list
Donate

I am with Ace.

I can appreciate what you are saying about the cs maps, anubis, but I don't agree. I think a good league would have more competition, meaning more players. And if nobody likes cs maps because the competitive scene is stubborn, then there will be significantly less people willing to play in said league.

_________________
Honey Badgers have very tough skin. The skin is very thick and rubbery, which is almost impervious to arrow and spears. Even a blow from machete can't scratch the skin. The skin protects them from bites.

HOLD ME CLOSER, TINY DANCER

That's why I suggested it be optional. Like choose to compete in a ladder with them, or in a season without.

_________________
Server list
Donate

yeah, I think it would be best suited in its own section. there are plenty of people who don't care what pro's think or do and want to play those maps and play them competitively. it would need some adjusting or special rules though, especially since you can rescue two hosties and then kill the other two and auto win the round that way. That is really cheap and lame, but it would be fine it say you got no rescue money if you killed hosties or something. Even that could be used against the CT's but I am sure there is a solution somehow.

_________________
I'm so official, like a dealer with a pistol or referee with a whistle.