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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2015 17:15 
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Yeah I have to concede that the SMG buff isn't as bad as I initially thought.

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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2015 17:15 
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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsFnJYJ2buU[/youtube]

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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2015 17:20 
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Holy shit Thorin is convincing. He argues like a fucking pro and lays the smackdown on everyone's candy ass.
EDIT: I now don't think the smg buff is the main issue as much as the AWP nerf. Jero and Thorin really opened my eyes on this issue. Sometimes it's ok to admit you were wrong.

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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2015 18:05 
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Holy shit Thorin is convincing. He argues like a fucking pro and lays the smackdown on everyone's candy ass.
EDIT: I now don't think the smg buff is the main issue as much as the AWP nerf. Jero and Thorin really opened my eyes on this issue. Sometimes it's ok to admit you were wrong.
Can you give a TL;DW of the video?

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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2015 18:12 
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Holy shit Thorin is convincing. He argues like a fucking pro and lays the smackdown on everyone's candy ass.
EDIT: I now don't think the smg buff is the main issue as much as the AWP nerf. Jero and Thorin really opened my eyes on this issue. Sometimes it's ok to admit you were wrong.
Can you give a TL;DW of the video?
TL:DW: AWP nerf = more Ct dominance. What were you thinking Valve?

Honestly, I'm not sure that's anything out of the ordinary that we haven't discussed.


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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2015 18:23 
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TL;DW The AWP nerf waters down gameplay. Thorin states that just because you position yourself badly in an MM game doesn't mean an entire playstyle needs to changed as a result of it. He talks about how if the AWP was so OP there would be 4 or 5 players on a team using it but it's not the case. The one JW video that everyone knows about is simply JW's brilliance and not the AWP's overpoweredness. He also shits on silvers bitching about things being OP in eSports.

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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2015 20:12 
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taz, summit, seized (I know I probably spelled it all wrong) all agree the update was good. 3 more pros besides friberg.

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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2015 20:38 
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taz, summit, seized (I know I probably spelled it all wrong) all agree the update was good. 3 more pros besides friberg.
Get_Right did also. He did an AMA today on reddit and said he liked the SMG buff, and felt neutral about the awp nerf.

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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2015 20:39 
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i dont know if that really supports your point, those teams didnt have a super strong agresssive awper so theoretically they would support the nerf because it doesnt effect them

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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2015 20:45 
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I really want everyone to watch that entire video. I think it illustrates the opposing sides (my) views entirely.

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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2015 20:54 
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yes, it really goes much more in-depth than what he initially starts off with. really well chosen words

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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2015 22:03 
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Instead of saying x amount of players say this or y amount of players say that we need to think for ourselves in trying to make the most skill based metagame possible. This awp nerf is telling people what they can and cant do with the tools they are given. Friberg only comment on the tec 9 nerf (unless i can get a link) and like anubis said get_right is neutral. Funny considering a team with a very passive awper is neutral on an agressive awp nerf. Seized is only saying that because guardian has been playing like balls. Also, it's funny how many riflers are commenting on this. Where is the awper's opinion? Don't they get a say? I mean of course a few pros will like a change if it benefits them. They are in it for the money. They will do what they can to get an easy win and of they suck at awping a nerf will help them.

That's where an esports journalist like thorin comes in. It would be interesting to see sirscoots and richard lewis' opinions on this since they don't have a dog in the fight. I'm a rifler and I have a major bias against the awp. However my lack of skill can't be a reason why better players are allowed to frag me. If I don't properly use smokes and flashes to my advantage, that is my fault.

If agressive awping required no skill, you would see every pro team and every silver doing it. That's not the case. You see maybe one awper on a five man team. If it was an OP tactic everyone would do it.(Tec 9 anyone?)

Don't give me a toolkit and tell me how to use it. I'm not a baby and I don't need it watered down. It's the casual invasion of CS GO and you can laugh all you want now but wait for more ridiculous updates in the future. Russian walking nerf anyone? It's not like that killed 1.6 or anything /s

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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2015 22:11 
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Also

MP7 Buff: DAE diversity in guns? I like a More complex metagame
AWP Nerf: You can't awp that agressive! Now the Metagame is too complex, please make this a simple defense (camping) weapon


Call me ignorant but this is all I can see.

Also does pro players opinions matter? I have had so many conflicting responses.

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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2015 23:59 
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Location: T͚̜͙͚̠̦ͬͧ̐ͬĥ͙͉͙̥̹̝͖ͮ̒̒̋ͤ̄eͭͫͭ ̥̤͔̽ͥ͐ͦͦͣỊ̒̎n̖͚̘͇̬̟te̻̥͇̳̲̲͊̂͆ͩr̝̯̦̼͔̖̻̽n͙ͬ͆̎e͔̰͎ͩ͋̀̚t̮̞͎̓ͨ́
Pro players opinions matter when considering what the changes will do to the game competitively. It would make sense to look to the most competitive people for such topics. There is more to the game though. It doesn't matter what the backbone of the game is, or what it was built from. What matters to the company is making money. Money is made by tournaments (which happen rarely) and cosmetics. Prepare for more visual updates and having the game cater to the mass casual players. Competitive players vs casual players is another debate.

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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2015 00:52 
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Im not sure if u have any opinions... the only thing im reading the pros opinions.


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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2015 03:49 
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Call me ignorant but this is all I can see.
You're so fixated on everything about the pros of this game that you forget the whole reason why they have the title "pro." They're "pro" for the sole purpose that they studied the game as if their life depended on it, they strategically came up with multiple plans for the maps, and they "adapted" to any and all future changes. If these so-called "pros" cannot adapt to the changes that Valve implements, then either retire or keep on adapting. I swear, some of these pros are too damn pampered and need to fucking accept the fact that Valve will be changing the game on a regular basis. They fucking get paid to show off their "skills" and if they can't adapt to any of the changes with these skills, then they don't deserve to be called pro.

The thing that really upsets me about what you're saying is that it's the whole: "Well the pros have said that this update is garbage so it must be true and therefore I'm gonna call it garbage."

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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2015 06:46 
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I really want everyone to watch that entire video. I think it illustrates the opposing sides (my) views entirely.
Does it only talk about the awp nerf?
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Instead of saying x amount of players say this or y amount of players say that we need to think for ourselves in trying to make the most skill based metagame possible.
That's what we've been trying to do, but you keep bringing up the pros like it's the end of the discussion. :/
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This awp nerf is telling people what they can and cant do with the tools they are given.
Well, you could say that about anything in the game. "Damn this movement inaccuracy! I should be able to run and shoot! How dare valve tell me I shouldn't be allowed to!"
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Where is the awper's opinion? Don't they get a say? I mean of course a few pros will like a change if it benefits them. They are in it for the money. They will do what they can to get an easy win and of they suck at awping a nerf will help them.
They probably haven't been able to play with it long enough to determine how the change effects them.
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Don't give me a toolkit and tell me how to use it. I'm not a baby and I don't need it watered down.
That's not what's happening. This is a game, a sport, so it has to have clear rules. It's like complaining that on fourth down, if you try to kick a field goal, you can't also try and catch a miss and get a touchdown. It's like in basketball, saying "Don't tell me I have to dribble! How dare you hand me this ball and tell me how I must use it." Or a baseball pitcher complaining that he has to throw in the strike box. "I'm the pitcher! How can these people who aren't even pitchers tell me how to throw the ball! The gall of them!" This is how sports work, including esports. The people in charge of the sports decide how they want the sports to run, make changes to the rule-set to cause them to run that way, and the people who play the sports deal with it. Nobody asked my opinion when they changed where you set up during a free throw. They just told me "This season, you have to set up one block higher", and I had to change my play style to compensate.
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Call me ignorant
No. It's not appropriate for anybody to be calling anybody else ignorant in a discussion about opinions like this. I didn't think this needed to be said, but your behavior yesterday followed by this post today leads me to believe maybe it does.

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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2015 11:15 
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Call me ignorant but this is all I can see.
You're so fixated on everything about the pros of this game that you forget the whole reason why they have the title "pro." They're "pro" for the sole purpose that they studied the game as if their life depended on it, they strategically came up with multiple plans for the maps, and they "adapted" to any and all future changes. If these so-called "pros" cannot adapt to the changes that Valve implements, then either retire or keep on adapting. I swear, some of these pros are too damn pampered and need to fucking accept the fact that Valve will be changing the game on a regular basis. They fucking get paid to show off their "skills" and if they can't adapt to any of the changes with these skills, then they don't deserve to be called pro.

The thing that really upsets me about what you're saying is that it's the whole: "Well the pros have said that this update is garbage so it must be true and therefore I'm gonna call it garbage."
Not at all. The pros can adapt. AK recoil change in 2011-2012, M4A1-S and USP-s being added etc. The problem is that Valve things they can dictate what guns are overpowered and what guns are not. And that's fine for guns like the AUG, CZ, or Tec 9. But before the update literally no one was complaining about the AWP being op (except n00bs who could smoke/flash or they would peek too wide and get punished). It's not a matter of adapting it's a matter of fucking with the game when it was fine in the first place. If the adapting helps the metagame become more skillbased, everyone in the world would jump on it but in this circumstance that isn't the case.

And the last quote is unnecessary and untrue. I never said that and you are putting words in my mouth. All I said was let the highest skilled players decide what is best for a healthy and skill based metagame. I used the example of the russian walking "fix" to show that valve is out of touch and incapable of deciding even the way the game is supposed to be played for even the most mediocre players.


Also, is boosting or bunnyhopping bad? Along with agressive awpping that's also how the "game's not supposed to be played" Skill based strats should be nerfed. Unfair and cheap guns (CZ, TEC9) should be.

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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2015 11:16 
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Prepare for more visual updates and having the game cater to the mass casual players.
RIP CS GO Modern Warfare

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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2015 11:42 
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Does it only talk about the awp nerf?
Yes
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That's what we've been trying to do, but you keep bringing up the pros like it's the end of the discussion. :/
I think that pro players know what's best for health and future off the game as a skill based competitive and tactical shooter. That's why I keep bringing them up. It's not the end of discussion but I do think that if people want to nerf a gun because THEY CANT ADAPT (Smokes/flashes) then this game will rot as another mediocre shooter.
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Well, you could say that about anything in the game. "Damn this movement inaccuracy! I should be able to run and shoot! How dare valve tell me I shouldn't be allowed to!"
You are right. I should have stated that in a tactical and skillbased shooter that valve shouldn't tell us what to do as long is it doesn't ruin the game by being ridiculously overpowered or watering down the metagame for casual players.
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They probably haven't been able to play with it long enough to determine how the change effects them.
Yet all the riflers are cool with it because they get a buff since the awp gets a nerf. Excuse me for this question but why was it notable to bring up players that were either neutral or didn't even comment? I really want to see what ex pro players and esports analysts without a dog in the fight say.
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That's not what's happening. This is a game, a sport, so it has to have clear rules.
In my metaphor I'm using basketball as an example. They don't change the rules to benefit high school basketball players. They only change the rules for the highest level of play and everyone else (NCAA, High School, Middle School, Elementary School, Kids on the street) tries to emulate that.
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It's like complaining that on fourth down, if you try to kick a field goal, you can't also try and catch a miss and get a touchdown.
How does an awp nerf that waters down the game compare to some arbitrary complaining that didn't even happen? I'm confused.
Quote:
It's like in basketball, saying "Don't tell me I have to dribble! How dare you hand me this ball and tell me how I must use it." Or a baseball pitcher complaining that he has to throw in the strike box. "I'm the pitcher! How can these people who aren't even pitchers tell me how to throw the ball! The gall of them!" This is how sports work, including esports. The people in charge of the sports decide how they want the sports to run, make changes to the rule-set to cause them to run that way, and the people who play the sports deal with it. Nobody asked my opinion when they changed where you set up during a free throw. They just told me "This season, you have to set up one block higher", and I had to change my play style to compensate.
Of course there has to be rules as a foundation for play. Nobody is saying we need 4 teams with 5 bombsites to play CS. But with the guidelines that are set in place I can't understand how a watered down nerf a gun that wasn't OP benefits the game. Also, the NBA didn't create basketball nor did the MLB create baseball or the NHL create hockey. They are simply the league in charge of the pro scene. We need a league in charge of the entire pro scene (similiar to a union) that dictates the way the game should be played and everyone should follow that if they want to play a tactical and competitive shooter. People who want to play the lesser game modes still can but the competitive scene needs to be prioritized.



PLEASE WATCH THE THORIN VIDEO IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN IT.
It addressed my points in a way I can't articulate.
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I didn't think this needed to be said, but your behavior yesterday followed by this post today leads me to believe maybe it does.
I didn't do anything except express my opinion and play with funny and I told him not to troll. I don't know what I did that was so bad.

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