Absurd Minds

http://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive ... le/cqdo808

The top comment is literally how I feel about GO at the moment. He hits the nail on the head. No one is wanting guns to be viable in every single situation, but they want more than ak m4 and deagle. Thorins response sounds incredibly whiney and argumentative for no reason at all. He is right that Thorin wants 1.6 version 2. That won't work anymore. People don't like that game style anymore. They don't want to shoot through 50 feet of concrete. They enjoy having a list of guns that you can actually use instead of here are 20 guns, but if you use anything other than these two you're fucked. Just Thorin's response to this guy makes me painfully aware of how out of touch Thorin actually is. I know a lot of people think he has a fresh view on things and has a lot of knowledge, but I don't frankly see it. I see someone who refuses to let go of the old game. I think if we listen to Thorin and change the game how he is saying it should be changed, a lot of people are gonna walk away from this game.

Just reading his responses to this guy, he is treating the guy like he said the guns are perfect RIGHT NOW. There is literally no one on the internet right now saying all the guns are working the way they should be. Thorin is just being a prick here to argue just to argue. The guns still have plenty of balancing to do. He even points out that if you revert the weapons these new play styles will disappear too, and Thorin's response is there aren't other playstyles its just abuse of OP and undervalued guns......he can't stand someone to disagree. His view point is INCREDIBLY stale. The guns need more tweaking, but to say that they aren't creating new play styles, and even encouraging people to try different things is just blindly covering your eyes and ignoring the game.

Balanced: "every weapon has a role or several situations in which it has a significant advantage over most other weapons within that role/situation." That's balance.

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I'm so official, like a dealer with a pistol or referee with a whistle.

I think thorin definitely has some good ideas, but people got it into their heads that if he has good ideas about X, his ideas about Y and Z must be right, too. People have gotten to the point where instead of taking what people say and evaluating it, they just day "well so-and-so says it, so it must be true". I can't even count the number of conversations we've had that ended with "well, the pros..." and then everybody refused to discuss the issue any further because if a pro says it it must be true.

Also, his response makes him sound like a 16 year old who just took his first debate class. Instead of discussing the poster's obvious point so that both parties as well as the community at large can learn something and grow, he tries to battle semantics to "win" the "argument".

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Yeah, I guess my thread title was a bit harsh. I guess what I mean to say was, this is why I don't hold his opinion that high. He does make some good points sometimes, but that make him this fountain of knowledge. I disagree with MOST of the stuff that comes out of his mouth. I literally feel like the very things he says are by the very definition watering down the game. Less guns, if you aren't a pro your opinion is worthless and no one should take it into account, make the game as much like 1.6 as possible. No one ANYWHERE is saying the guns are balanced yet. I think they have taken a giant step in the right direction. Maybe they stepped too big, and have some clean up to do, whatever. When he said that the regular community should be ignored as far as ideas go, I just couldn't possibly listen to anything after that. I understand that sometimes and maybe even a lot of the times people will have bad ideas for how to improve the game. However, I think it should be discussed and shown why its a bad idea, instead of just saying so and so pro said its bad. Just because someone is a silver, or even a SMFC really doesn't represent their knowledge at being able to break something down and discuss it even at a high level. Knowledge does not always translate into skill or vice versa. Maybe this most recent and future changes will be considered "bad" in the short run or contested, but at least for this most recent I think long term this is a good change. Hopefully if they do some tweaking, before long people will be much more comfortable with the changes made.

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I'm so official, like a dealer with a pistol or referee with a whistle.

I think as an eSports commentator, Thorin wants there to be the most skill based combat and SMGs and OP Pistols simply don't require that skill. He summed it up in a comment which went something to the extent of a good AK or Deagle headshot looks, feels, and is better and takes more skill than an MP7 or Tec 9 Headshot. I think his heart is in the right place but he can seem harsh.

Nobody complained about AK/M4/AWP in 1.6 but now there seems to be this affirmative action-esque diversity movement that is creeping into CS GO. Now the MP7 should be as effective as a fucking colt in certain circumstances. I think that idea of game balance is ridiculous. If you pay more for a weapon it should do more for you. That's why the AWP should be better than the scout and the Deagle should be better than the Tec 9. The price of a gun should be exponential in relationship to it's effectiveness. If it isn't, there is balance problems. Look at the tec9 again. It can 1 tap where a fucking colt can't. That's simply bad design.

I also think that if someone leaves CS because the guns go back to the way the economy worked in 1.6, then CS is not for you.

The game should be about the quality of guns. Not Quantity. More Guns =/= Better Gameplay. It's like anyone who has played a a competitive fighting game. The more characters you put in a fighting game the less balance between those characters there is going to be. Same thing with CS GO just instead with guns. M4/AK/AWP/Deagle worked but it only worked because it was so simple. Complex metagames built on those simple building blocks and you made a fantastic fucking game. CS GO is trying to appeal to casuals, and for a skill based game it is really going to hurt it.

SImply put, SMGs shouldn't be better than rifles and the metagame was fine the way it is. Valve simply looks at statistics of n00bs and thinks that because a gun isn't being used it needs to be buffed into infinity. That is where TEC9, AUG, and now SMGs become too powerful FOR THE AMOUNT YOU PAY FOR THEM. Mac 10 Should be god awful because it's only 1050. It's like people forgot that an economy system is the foundation for CS. AWP should be amazing. It's 4750. Why make the guns more even when the prices aren't?

You can say 1.6 was stale but you can't deny it was the most balanced we have seen in a miltary FPS.

Wallbanging promoted listening and good coordinaton. Look at dust2 doors now. They are fucking shit. A rifle takes a bazillion shots to get a kill.
People bitching about wallbanging remind me of people who hated russian walking and bunnyhopping. Just because a n00b can't do it doesn't mean it should be removed. This is why focusing on the HIGHEST level of play is the best and most effective way of game balance. It's a trickle down system not a trickle up system.

stemcellninja is a bit harsh but he's right here
http://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive ... le/cqdq6pr

I can't stand the pro valve circlejerk that happens with a bad update.

I basically disagree with every single point you made. There is nothing that says that the game is easier now. Literally nothing. At higher levels of play rifles are still beating smgs. Smgs are not something that just let people take over maps. There is nothing that shows the game is more skilled because of those few weapons ONLY being used. The things Thorin wants LITERALLY WATER THE GAME DOWN. You can't possibly explain to me how using less guns isn't watered down. Its very stale to watch. I can't stand the anti valve circle jerk that happens when the game isn't converted into 1.6. I am not gonna argue that it wasn't the most balanced game, but when you have a game based around about 4 guns only, its not really hard to balance that. Now with a much richer meta and more in depth game play its not so easy. It takes time and it takes patience.

How has anyone forgotten about the economy of the game? This very change was a huge attempt at FIXING the economy. A lot of people were really tired of the pistol round deciding a match. Its not even remotely fun to watch something and go well pistol round is lost, so game is over, who cares now? There was just way too much riding on one single round. Ecos are easier now, but against a prepared team of riflers it still doesn't make that much more of a difference. Maybe I get one or two more kills and maybe can afford a better gun. My whole team can't.

There is nothing anywhere that proves guns value should be exponential to their effectiveness. Balance the guns damage and movement values, then balance the money accordingly. If you do it exponentially then you are gonna end up with a few expensive guns and everything else dirt fucking cheap with really big kill bonuses.

No one has said that focusing on the higher level of play isn't a good way of balancing. A lot of people are saying, that just because those people play at that level, doesn't mean they know jack shit about how to balance or change ANYTHING about the game, and we shouldn't be fooled into thinking that. Skill, does not always revert to knowledge, and knowledge does not always revert to skill. That is a misconception. I can't possibly see how valve is appealing to casuals with this update. All it did was make it so that if you suck, then you are gonna get pwned harder than before now.

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I'm so official, like a dealer with a pistol or referee with a whistle.

I don't think it lowers the skill ceiling or waters it down, either. I think people who mediocre think that it does, though. "Wtf, I always run up here and get this kill, but I died to an OP7. this game is noob friendly now!" What they don't think about is that they didn't flash first, they didn't have a teammate for crossfire, and they didn't peek the corner effectively, so they died. This is a noob unfriendly update, because now there are more ways to be punished for poor play, because it's not just a battle of aim and reaction time. You actually have to use your brain some now, and it turns out that people who maybe don't shoot well cam still use their brain and outsmart you.

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I don't usually proofread my posts, but I was trying to this time. If anything came across as purely attacking, or condescending let me know. I tried to keep that out of my post.

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I'm so official, like a dealer with a pistol or referee with a whistle.

If you fuck up on pistols there should be some economic punishment. There is no punishment for armor pistoling after you lose a round as ct since you wont be able to buy till 4th round anyway. I miss the days were if you sucked dick on pistols you lost economic momentum for the next 2 to 3 rounds. Also, an SMG with a flash still shouldn't beat an AK with no flashes. One takes skill to aim and the other is for noobs.

I never ever once thought the 1.6 meta was stale, old, or boring. Nor did most CS fans until 2014ish. Why now? Why change a great formula that worked for 15 years and make the game about SMGs? Why should they be relevant?

For one, the game is not lost and for 2 the game is not about how fun it is to watch. It's about how much skill is needed to play with the guns.

If I flash you I should beat you no matter what weapon I have or you have.

Also, everything in the entire world changes. People want change because 15 years of something is stale. They want new innovation. New game, lets do new things. That is generally how the world works.

I have heard you and jero probably 100 times say those very words. Game is over they lost pistol round. The game is about how much fun it is to watch. Or no one will watch it. Chess is one of the most highly skilled things you can compete at....but boring as fuck to watch. Your logic doesn't translate.

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I'm so official, like a dealer with a pistol or referee with a whistle.

This is exactly what I think should happen. Cheap guns don't get to be as effective as more expensive ones. If cheap guns are as good as expensive ones then why use the expensive ones??

How is that economy balanced? No one anywhere is saying make the guns the same.

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I'm so official, like a dealer with a pistol or referee with a whistle.

Exactly. This should be like chess. The only people that find excitement in watching it are knowledgeable about the game. While this doesn't pander to the lowest common denominator , it definately retains the skill based aspect of the game. This isn't football or MMA. It's not supposed to be flashy. You know what is exciting? Random elements. Like winning the lottery. Should we have to pick a colored wire on the bomb when we defuse it? Fuck no. Because exciting stuff should not be prioritized over skill based things.

And you just effectively killed your game.

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I'm so official, like a dealer with a pistol or referee with a whistle.

CS 1.6 managed to stay afloat for 10 years. Quake 3/Live is still a bit popular. These games have had metagames that were rigid and skill based forever. I don't think a game needs a bazillion useful guns to have a great game. I think skins, betting, pro players, as well as the fact that CS is one of the few non Free to Play eSports games and I think that CSGO will succeed no matter what.

Even the pawn can kill the queen in chess, if you're playing the game right. The queen doesn't just automatically kill the pawn because it's better.

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But the pawn isn't as viable as the queen. Yes it may kill it but it's unlikely. It's purpose is to be the front line.