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PostPosted: 05 Jul 2016 20:08 
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9/10 you have already heard of this, but h3h3Productions exposes the issue of gambling within CS:GO.

He proceeds to show statistics of how in the past year 2.3 billion US dollars worth of skins have traded between users, bots, and the like. He talks about how Valve is seemingly promoting this under-age gambling scene and that there is almost no repercussions for the sites that host said under-age gambling.

He sweetens his video by showing how CoD youtubers, TmarTn and ProSyndicate, just so happen to OWN a gambling site that they have promoted on their channel, pretended to not be affiliated with the site, has been logged in as a bot on stream, and countless other things.

I used to go on CSGOLounge alot and bet on games, but that was different. That was also over a year ago and now, for the most part, I dislike all gambling sites.

This has also received quite a response from CS:GO YouTubers who are not affiliated too much with gambling to speak their word. These tubers are WarOwl, 3kliksphilip, and Anomaly, just to name a few.

Just wanted to know the opinion of others on this matter.

Philip DeFranco sums it up really well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5UPNruOctw
General synopsis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51N4CL86zk4
TmarTn logged in as bot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYnLUUMBZJg
Video Game Attorney on the issue: http://www.pcinvasion.com/csgolotto-cov ... e-attorney
3kliksphilip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL-0MNEcELU
Anomaly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxg7OP7 ... e=youtu.be

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Last edited by GoatMips on 06 Jul 2016 12:34, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 05 Jul 2016 21:15 
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Great post. I like all the videos you dug up to explain the issue so well. I have one slightly off topic request: Take off the WarOwl video. With how he treated our community during the beta, I don't feel comfortable directing traffic to his videos; and anyway, when the ESEA bitcoin scandal came out, he made a great video about it and then deleted it a few weeks later because of outside pressure, so I bet this video won't even be up in a few weeks anyway.

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PostPosted: 06 Jul 2016 22:48 
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TmarTn made an apology video, that he promptly removed.

Here is a reupload: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qu-GKl ... e=youtu.be

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PostPosted: 07 Jul 2016 17:31 
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Yeah, it was the most bullshit apology. All those sites are so fucking shady, even the "legit" ones seem really shady to me. I would never use something like this and I really think valve needs to do something. This game has such a terrible reputation right now, I am afraid if they don't do something soon this game is gonna die.

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PostPosted: 07 Jul 2016 19:56 
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CSGOLounge wasnt something that could be rigged easily, only by the pros playing the games.

Wasnt this gambling site in question just a button click and hope ya win? That would be easily rigged.


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PostPosted: 07 Jul 2016 20:05 
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Csgolounge also takes a small portion of bets as a form of tax. There is definite possibility that they could be doing what was stated in the video and taking more than they say. We would never ever know, really.

Betting sites help grow the game though. They aren't necessary but they don't take away from it. It creates a toxic community though. A community where people threaten pros when they lose because they lost their precious skins.

Valve can't really do anything though. Like, what is there to do besides ban the bots, which would be difficult to impossible to not interfere with the player base getting some bans as well. It would be like if I created a betting site for our 1v1 server. You can ban me from the server. That's about it. What else could you do besides tell people it's shady or try to flip my reputation. There is literally nothing you could do about the physical site.

And this is exactly what valve is facing. These betting sites are huge. These people make a LOT of money off them. Like the video said, millions of dollars. That could easily afford them the best lawyers to take care of them and push them in the direction of Grey areas instead of illegal areas.

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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2016 07:48 
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So a gambling site has recently posted to twitter this photo.

The photo includes a termination notice of 10 days, and lists the following sites to be terminated:

csgolounge.com
csgostrong.com
csgodouble.com
csgo500.com
csgocosmos.com
csgocasino.net
csgo2x.com
csgohouse.com
csgoatse.com
csgodiamonds.com
societylogin.com
dota2lounge.com
societylogin.com
dota2lounge.com
csgocrash.com
csgolotto.com
csgobig.com
csgofast.com
csgosweep.com
csgomassive.com
csgobattle.com
skins2.com
scgopot.com
csgowild.com
bets.gg

Two important things to note:
First: CSGO Lounge is being targeted. This is killer and I really did not want to see this specific one to happen. CSGO Lounge acted as a big eye-opener for teams as some got their popularity from Lounge and without it, they wouldn't have gotten anywhere. I will also miss CSGO Lounge because it made skin trading SO MUCH easier than just browsing the market or what-not. Without Lounge, people may have to go to a trade server more... and those are abysmal.

Second: OPSkins is not listed. This makes it possible for people to still trade, or at least cash-out. I am glad to see this still exist because otherwise, one can't cash out on a high-dollar item if they wanted to.

Lots of sites, however, are not listed. This leads some to speculate that Valve will target OPSkins either harder, or not at all. It seems that OPSkins is a threat to the CSGO market, but others say it may actually support the market because people will buy lots of items only to cash-out later.

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Last edited by GoatMips on 20 Jul 2016 07:57, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2016 07:54 
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A Redditor posted this comment with regards to CSGO Lounge:

"this is the beginning of the end of csgo if lounge will close down.

1. who will be watching the trash tier 3-4 teams if not people who bet on them?
2. A LOT of sponsors gonna pull out because drop in viewer numbers gonna be huge.
3. first pro players of tier3-4 teams gonna lose their salary and their job because of all above.
4. a lot of casters etc and people that work for companies around csgo gonna lose their job cause all that above.

i really dont believe that people know csgo would be nowhere close to how big it is now without csgolounge. if lounge closes people like sirscoots will realize that just the existence of csgolounge had a 100 times more positive influence than anything what he has done for the game."

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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2016 09:29 
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what I really don't like is them leaving out daily fantasy sports websites like alphadraft, draftkings, and fanduel. they support csgo, dota 2, and many other esports. how are those sites any different?

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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2016 09:39 
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The push for this is legality concerns. Underage gambling is what got this thing popular, Valve is is just saying that using Steam accounts for business purposes are against Tos. Now, with other things being against ToS, Valve can just pretend it isn't happening. Legally speaking, Valve doesn't have to do anything as long as it isn't against the law. Their terms of service is not necessarily legally binding if a person breaks it.

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Last edited by GoatMips on 20 Jul 2016 10:59, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2016 09:52 
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I am glad they are shutting down. I think its pathetic if this game hinges on people underage gambling or not. I would rather let cs die then it be held up by gambling. Its a huge HUGE issue. There are plenty of reports of these sites just dropping and running with the skins they have. No one getting to "cash out" what they put in. These sites are scummy as fuck. Even the "legit" ones I promise will have some really shady shit going on behind the scenes. I also don't feel the slightest bad for teams that needed to be known, so they associate with such scummy fucking websites. I think this is a huge step forward. I think most people will realise how wrong everyone is about "the game will die without betting". If you want to be taken serious and legit then this is the first step. You can have controversies like underage gambling and expect to be taken serious.

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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2016 10:52 
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Hmmm, that is very interesting. I wonder if the shutdown of CSGOLounge will really have that sort of impact. I really have a hard time believing that teams got opportunities because of skin betting on random sites. It's possible they got more popular in the public eye, but I really don't believe that organizations weren't already scouting them or wouldn't have found them if it weren't for skin betting.

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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2016 10:53 
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Teams wouldn't just choose to be a part of it. Their associations and sponsors would make that happen. Individually the teams couldn't support it. Now that HLTV is practically the only place to see new matches, it will be hard for teams to get really popular.

Public eye is incredibly important. Sponsorships, to be honest, are 99% publicity. Without that public eye sponsors will drop their sponsorships rather quickly as it may not profitable for them.

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Last edited by GoatMips on 20 Jul 2016 10:59, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2016 10:58 
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Quote:
TValve can just turn the other cheek.
Do you mean "turn a blind eye"?

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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2016 11:08 
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I'd also like to add that most of these websites are fine. The % fee taken from each bet is more than enough to satisfy the average individual and with how automated systems and bots are setup, getting the system rigged is a bit tedious to setup.

CSGO Lounge was also known to be one of the most reliable sites out there. Their bot system has been perfect for me and I have not seen any sort of shady business. Other sites don't follow the same principle though. Only a mark few have been known to be sketch, but one can't simply block out an entire industry over a few shoddy culprits.

I would be open to betting sites again as long as a few industry standards are met. Of course instituting age limits and a proper way of preventing underage gambling is one of them, but how accounts are to be handled, how bots are to be handled, how skins are to be handled is just a few more.

Gambling site for csgo skins will be perfectly fine as long as such standards are in place.

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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2016 15:37 
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200 percent of my problem with them is the underage gambling. The shady shit will get figured out and people will move on to companies that are not shady. I don't approve of kids being able to fuck them and their families over so easily. If there was verification of age before pay out then that would be great.

I still don't think gambling and skins are what made this game popular. I think that is a sentiment that gets thrown around a lot so people believe it. I could be wrong. I just meet an awful lot of people that could care less about skins or gambling. I could just be remembering it that way to suit my argument too, who knows.

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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2016 20:40 
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Counter-points:
Quote:
CSGO Lounge acted as a big eye-opener for teams as some got their popularity from Lounge and without it, they wouldn't have gotten anywhere.
This is simply not true. Nobody got their popularity from CSGOLounge. They got their popularity from winning. CSGOLounge may have amplified that, but it is not due to that. Correlation =/= causation.
Quote:
"this is the beginning of the end of csgo if lounge will close down.

1. who will be watching the trash tier 3-4 teams if not people who bet on them?
Doesn't matter. Tier 3-4 teams don't make CSGO very much money at all. It will always be the tier 1 teams and SOME tier 2 teams. The majors are where a huge chunk of competitive CSGO revenue comes from. The other part is cases. Gambling is still in CSGO.
Quote:
2. A LOT of sponsors gonna pull out because drop in viewer numbers gonna be huge.
I agree that there will be a drop in viewership. I disagree that it will change sponsorship. You can still bet on CSGO matches IN CSGO. That isn't nothing. Betting on your fantasy team and betting on the winning teams still adds value to watching the games.
Quote:
3. first pro players of tier3-4 teams gonna lose their salary and their job because of all above.
I would argue that tier 3-4 teams don't have a salary. They have a bonus structure for winning tournaments.
Quote:
4. a lot of casters etc and people that work for companies around csgo gonna lose their job cause all that above.
Again, same points as above, this is simply not true. SOME casters will lose their jobs if they lose popularity. I wouldn't say a LOT because I wouldn't say there IS a lot of casters currently.
Quote:
i really dont believe that people know csgo would be nowhere close to how big it is now without csgolounge. if lounge closes people like sirscoots will realize that just the existence of csgolounge had a 100 times more positive influence than anything what he has done for the game
I strongly disagree. The toxicity that CSGOLounge and other betting sites has brought to the scene is immense. Players are literally being threatened for losing matches. Players are literally being swatted out of anger from trolls. Increased popularity by NO MEANS equates to positive influence. I think people like Sir Scoots and pro players will realize the negativity that has come from the skin betting websites.
Quote:
what I really don't like is them leaving out daily fantasy sports websites like alphadraft, draftkings, and fanduel. they support csgo, dota 2, and many other esports. how are those sites any different?
I theory they might not be very different. In law, the fantasy sports websites operate on money, where Valve has no say; versus, skin betting sites needing to use steam accounts to recieve the skins.
Quote:
Hmmm, that is very interesting. I wonder if the shutdown of CSGOLounge will really have that sort of impact. I really have a hard time believing that teams got opportunities because of skin betting on random sites. It's possible they got more popular in the public eye, but I really don't believe that organizations weren't already scouting them or wouldn't have found them if it weren't for skin betting.
EXACTLY.
Quote:
Teams wouldn't just choose to be a part of it. Their associations and sponsors would make that happen. Individually the teams couldn't support it. Now that HLTV is practically the only place to see new matches, it will be hard for teams to get really popular.
I think you are forgetting that Counter-Strike was a popular esport long before skins were a thing. Other games are popular esports without these types of betting websites. CSGO is already huge. That audience won't just disappear.
Quote:
Public eye is incredibly important. Sponsorships, to be honest, are 99% publicity. Without that public eye sponsors will drop their sponsorships rather quickly as it may not profitable for them.
I think you answered your own statement. No, sponsorships are not 99% publicity. They are 10% publicity and 90% profit. Absolutely, they won't sponsor a team if it won't profit them in any way. Remembering that an increase in sales because your name is on a team, is profitable. Just like your team winning and owing you a sponsorship fee is also profitable. There are different ways sponsors can make money.
Quote:
and with how automated systems and bots are setup, getting the system rigged is a bit tedious to setup.
I strongly disagree. Devaluing and item is a great way to make more money. They can take their 5% or what ever it is, but if they devalue every skin by $.50, they will make a metric assload of money.
Quote:
Their bot system has been perfect for me and I have not seen any sort of shady business
What about their 30 day skin policy where they take your skins if you don't return them or bet them. To compound that, I have never had a good experience with bots. I would estimate that 10% of the time I get my skins on the first try, the rest of the time I can't even get a single trade to go through.
Quote:
Only a mark few have been known to be sketch, but one can't simply block out an entire industry over a few shoddy culprits.
Really, MOST of them have been known to be sketch. Only a mark few have been shown (not proven though) to be fair.

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